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 · 385 ratings  · 33 reviews

First your review of Formations of the Secular: Christianity, Islam, Modernity

February 13, 2009 Scott rated it liked it

If you lot similar academic, deconstuctionist, esoteric texts then Talal Asad is for yous. If y'all don't, I'd go somewhere else for a critique of secularism. Since I had to read this book, I didn't have much of a choice. His proposal is intriguing - that secularism is rooted in Christianity and an oppositional conception of Europe. This is especially interesting and timely when thinking about Muslim countries and individuals in Europe (which Asad devotes a chapter to).

The major problem, beyond the ivory

If yous similar academic, deconstuctionist, esoteric texts then Talal Asad is for you. If you don't, I'd go somewhere else for a critique of secularism. Since I had to read this book, I didn't have much of a option. His proposal is intriguing - that secularism is rooted in Christianity and an oppositional conception of Europe. This is especially interesting and timely when thinking about Muslim countries and individuals in Europe (which Asad devotes a chapter to).

The major problem, across the ivory-towerishness of it, was that I couldn't assistance shaking the feeling that Asad was sort of winging it. Oftentimes he relied of but one or two not-related texts to span major gaps in his argument. Nonetheless, given that "secular" versus "religious" is a major theme of this era, it is a unique contribution. I was disappointed that a solution was non proposed. Secularism was problematized, simply what are we to practice with that knowledge?

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This is kind of interesting for the questions it poses and for topics information technology identifies as interesting for the thinking about the subject of secularism, but aside from that it's frustratingly meandering and unfocused. I agree with treating secularism as credo, as a mode of living which develops its own narratives, upstanding frameworks, myths and so on. Asad is surely correct to emphasize, besides, that reading secularism as withal another recasting of mythologies, or withal another recasting of religious fra This is kind of interesting for the questions information technology poses and for topics it identifies as interesting for the thinking about the subject of secularism, but bated from that it's frustratingly meandering and unfocused. I hold with treating secularism as ideology, as a mode of living which develops its ain narratives, ethical frameworks, myths and so on. Asad is surely correct to emphasize, too, that reading secularism every bit however some other recasting of mythologies, or yet another recasting of religious frameworks, would have been grossly reductive. At the aforementioned fourth dimension, and there he's right every bit well, he is skeptical to trust the optimistic, teleological stories secularists tell of themselves – stories of continuous emancipation, modernization, certitude, and and so on. The position that he holds is that despite secularism trying to achieve a total break with the faith, it fails to do so and secularism stems from religion (and secular stems from religious) and uses information technology as a basis – even so, this happens in more contingent means and information technology is not merely a chiliad general inversion.

The particular issues through which Asad chooses to pursue secularism and secular "in the shadows", such as the notions of sacred and profane, agency, hurting, cruelty, human being rights, nationalism, family, and so on, are well chosen. They obviously aren't intended to provide a comprehensive, total overview, so no point for criticizing for lack of that, only the investigations are, nonetheless, quite underwhelming in themselves.

For case, when investigating the framing of pain in secular and religious, Asad make some interesting points: he shows pain as meaningful in religious framework, fifty-fifty as a course of agency, rooted in the particular religious habitus which involves bodily involvement in the religious rites, which therefore can't exist understood as metaphorical or symbolic, but sacred in themselves. When secular eschews this framework, pain appears as disturbance and as something meaningless, and it'south thus to be spurned as absolutely undesirable. Confronted with the fact of pain, and with the necessity to employ state violence against threats (such violence beingness perfectly legitimate for a liberal commonwealth to use, besides), secularism draws certain distinctions along utilitarian (gratuitous vs. necessary) and ideological (human vs. inhuman handling – begging the question how we define this "human" as describing word hither) lines. Interesting generalizations are suggested here. View of secularism equally – as opposed to irrational organized religion – having feet on the footing may be subverted: it's the breathy insufficiency and thus the necessary collapse of rough absolutes that secular deals in (absolute repudiation of hurting as meaningless, in this example) which makes information technology face up the world in its unordered, confusing facticity (the painfulness of existence). Working backwards information technology the prides itself as rational for letting these rough absolutes plummet and information technology condemns the religion for protecting itself with a veil of ignorance, which the secularism got rid of, and which doesn't allow organized religion to meet the world for what it is. What it overlooks in the process is that religion provides a much more organic, complex view of the reality without only subsuming the factual to the absolute, without seeing a unproblematic binary of disordered world ordered by transcendent God who'south not of this globe (in Christianity the intermingling of godlike and worldly is obviously central, with God being embodied and with his trunk literally suffering). Secularism thus doesn't primarily face up religion by stripping it of its mythologies – it primarily confronts information technology past whipping up the absolutes, which is dissimilar story than the secularism tells of itself. In a style, if we accept all the things transcendent and absolute every bit irrational – which is sometimes the role of story secularism tells – then secular kind of inaugurates itself through whipping up the irrationality to highest level and letting it accident up. At the same time, it'due south clear that the thinking of absolute is rooted in the religious and fifty-fifty if we desire to consider modern secularism every bit a intermission with the religious, there surely must accept been some radical transformation of the religious at some indicate which fabricated it possible.

However, Asad doesn't really pursue his investigations in this mode. More ofttimes, he throws in yet another quote, nonetheless another anecdote, or seems content to point out to secularism's hypocrisy (such as: aye, we do repudiate cruelty equally inhuman, so that, for example, torture is illegal – just what almost drone-killing the civilians in impersonal and distant matter and categorizing it as "collateral damage"?), all the fourth dimension reminding yous that his interests are descriptive and he'south not moralizing – although, of course, he always is. Information technology's frustrating and disappointing.

I'd prefer his arguments were clearer and that it'd be clearer where he's heading with all that. 50 pages about reform of sharia in colonial Egypt are informative just it'due south been unclear what the significance of this is supposed to be, and how it'due south a conclusion of the book's statement in any way. Yes, some reformers accept drawn on tradition more than others, some have referred to tradition but for utilitarian purposes, the secular and modern reform involves clearer separation of police force and ethics while the 2 are intermingled in the original sharia and fiqh, procedures become depersonalized in mod times (in Weberian style) while traditionally judges and scholars were supposed not to be ruling according to constabulary, but living it and embodying information technology. But what is to be made of a mere description of these contrasts? I'd actually prefer Asad to be more speculative, and to make a bolder cess of the secularist claims to universality and to existence the final destiny of history (the latter is which I enjoyed, and therefore institute more thought-provoking, in Carl Schmitt, particularly Roman Catholicism and Political Form). Asad doesn't seem to think that secularism is destined to endure forever, and at the same fourth dimension he doesn't seem to believe that return of the onetime religious framework is likely. Simply if he had made his assessments more obvious, the particular investigations, such equally the i into the hurting, would accept been placed within larger argument and thus their significance would have been bolstered beyond being food for idea and interesting topics for discussion. Asad probably didn't desire such sweeping theses to overshadow the focus on minutae and gradual mapping of the terrain, but actually, the result is that there's a proper volume on this topic waiting to be written, and the existing book at hand is generally only an intellectual stimulator, a starter to be used for kicking oneself to write that book.

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Jun 22, 2019 Graeme rated it liked it

two.5 Stars

While, at that place were some interesting arguments buried within the text, I found this work fairly underwhelming considering the arguments seem fairly obvious and difficult to deny. I come to this work every bit more than of a student of political science, philosophy, economics and history, than folklore and anthropology. So, I may have been looking for Asad to answer certain questions that he was clearly not interested in answering.

Asad'southward principal project seems to be to look at the concept of secular and seculari

2.5 Stars

While, there were some interesting arguments cached inside the text, I found this work fairly underwhelming because the arguments seem fairly obvious and hard to deny. I come to this work as more than of a student of political science, philosophy, economics and history, than sociology and anthropology. So, I may take been looking for Asad to answer certain questions that he was clearly not interested in answering.

Asad's main projection seems to be to look at the concept of secular and secularism, to try to make up one's mind what, if anything, is fundamental to it. His answer seems to be that the concept has shifted over time, and it has multiple valences and there is no singular agreement of the secular or secularism that transcends time. This seems to then inform a vaguely Foucauldian critique of modernization theory and more general whiggish histories. For what its worth, I don't remember Asad is wrong at all hither, I was just expecting a lot more, every bit any student of 20th century philosophy, particularly Wittgenstein, Rorty and Heidegger would notice this to be a fairly obvious argument.

Also, the one area where I would quibble with Asad a chip is his focus on a very continental European as opposed to Anglophone concept of secularism. The notion of the abstract citizen is far more deeply tied to French republicanism than it is to American or English language liberalism.

Overall, if you're interested in seeing different ways to problematize the secular and secularism at that place is some value here, but if you are looking for a broader argument well-nigh the office of "secularism" in public affairs looks elsewhere.

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Jul xvi, 2008 Adam rated information technology information technology was amazing

Certainly ane of the best books on secularism and the anthropology of secularism. Asad tries to understand secularism through its geneaology. I reread chapters in this book constantly.

Jan 17, 2020 Madhubrata rated it really liked it

I dont really feel upward to rating and reviewing academic works, but this dissettled me in a good way.

May 24, 2020 Beni Beattie rated it it was amazing

Great read, super analytical and idea provoking stuff, that presents a deep understanding of secular transitions in the modern world.

Oct 01, 2017 Roger Green rated information technology it was amazing

This fantabulous book takes an interdisciplinary look at the contradictions and logics informing secularization and early "mail service secular" critiques. From the evolution of human rights and liberalism to the debates about torture and Muslims in Europe...the so-chosen "disharmonism of civilizations" this volume, published almost xv years agone does more than to help us sympathise the current world than whatever ephemeral news story or facile gripings about the ascent of the far right. This excellent book takes an interdisciplinary wait at the contradictions and logics informing secularization and early "post secular" critiques. From the evolution of man rights and liberalism to the debates near torture and Muslims in Europe...the so-called "clash of civilizations" this volume, published almost 15 years ago does more to assist u.s. understand the current earth than whatsoever ephemeral news story or facile gripings about the rise of the far correct. ...more

This is a boring, abstrusely-written meander. Asad attempts to draw a sketch of what an "anthropology of secularism" might await like, but by examining the "shadows" of the secular and the policy of secularism. In other words, exercise not expect a straight-forward engagement of the subject, but a lot of bafflegab. This is a boring, abstrusely-written meander. Asad attempts to draw a sketch of what an "anthropology of secularism" might look like, but by examining the "shadows" of the secular and the policy of secularism. In other words, practice not wait a straight-forward date of the subject area, simply a lot of bafflegab. ...more

Oct 04, 2016 Josh rated it liked it

Great chapter on Islam in Europe, the balance was interesting too just very very dense.

Dec xix, 2020 lifeofsadnan rated it really liked it

This was a very in depth read. Asad has a great command over diverse fields in the humanities. He doesn't give many straightforward conclusions, information technology is moreso an exploration of the inconsistencies of secularism. Will need to reread in a few years fourth dimension.

Chapter 1-3 are very complex and abstract - the rest of the book is much easier. Following are fundamental discussions that happen from Ch iv onward.

- the whole idea of human rights. universal annunciation talks nigh inalienable rights, then moves straight

This was a very in depth read. Asad has a neat control over diverse fields in the humanities. He doesn't requite many straightforward conclusions, it is moreso an exploration of the inconsistencies of secularism. Will need to reread in a few years fourth dimension.

Chapter 1-3 are very complex and abstract - the rest of the book is much easier. Following are key discussions that happen from Ch 4 onward.

- the whole idea of human rights. universal declaration talks about inalienable rights, then moves straight to country - i.east we give abroad our agency over our rights as individuals to the land, who decides on commonage rights for united states. state has monpoly on violence it can use however it pleases to enforce morals it deems worthy (expert examples on fgm, mexican tribes). humanistic vs local redemption/prophecy narratives, their effectiveness.

- european identity: actually has a definition, was actively divers equally "not muslim" (because fighting turks) and "non communist" (fighting russians). based on shared feel of living through roman empire, christendom, industrial rev, enlightenment - immigrants didnt alive through this. whole thought of europe was born to forget wwii trauma and state complicity/collaboration. good examples of germany (genocidal, destroyed continent, just no question about their europeanness), bosnia, and russian federation.

- not possible for muslims to be genuinely representative of muslims in european political scene. you accept to buy into a ready of values/experiences to be european, and thats what these countries are past definition. non merely a xenophobic matter when correct doesnt want more than ppl.

- state deceit coerce religious belief similar it tin hard facts of life - economy, poolitics, educational activity, etc. either its left out of public completely (where ppl volition eventually grow to vote based on it), orit becomes a minority rights grab - thats why the extent of it is abortion, lgbt, etc debates. doesnt bring anything to reform morals/how we exercise things as a social club anymore.

- egypt modernists, transformation of sharia, copy/pasting european legal codes, indigenous elite doing everything possible to grab up to europe. modernist/salafi obsession with ijtihad, removal of anything remotely resembling superstition because past doing and then, we tin can reach their level.

- likewise, importance of citizen/subjectry edifice, islamic views on it, referece base points. is it viable in multicultural societies? discussions of examples.

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Jul 23, 2021 Conor Hilton rated it it was amazing

This volume is incredible. Truly astounding scholarship hither that is largely clear and easy to follow (though quite complex and thematically dense, and then worth taking slowly to digest everything that's going on hither). Asad'due south work here is a solid exploration of what the secular, secularization, and secularism really are. He begins to sketch out how these categories came to be and offers provocative insight into how we should all begin to rethink the means we likely excogitate of 'the secular' and 'religi This volume is incredible. Truly astounding scholarship hither that is largely clear and easy to follow (though quite complex and thematically dense, and so worth taking slowly to digest everything that's going on here). Asad's piece of work hither is a solid exploration of what the secular, secularization, and secularism really are. He begins to sketch out how these categories came to be and offers provocative insight into how nosotros should all begin to rethink the means we probable conceive of 'the secular' and 'religion'. Highly recommend for anyone interested in the bookish study of religion and particularly those with interests virtually how religion and secularity intersect in politics and 'the public square'. ...more

Apr 05, 2020 Frank R. rated it did non like information technology

A terrible read...The only decent anthropology derived from this text is that Secularism is a worldview. It stands as a doctrine comprised of various layers of mail-Enlightenment and Modernist philosophical themes that can neither exist characterized as a continuation of nor alternative to religion. It may act equally a religion because of historical borrowing and the common homo cognitive templates derived from collective social interactions in developing nation-states.

You lot. Are. Welcome. :)

2-2.five/v. I take seen "Formations of the Secular: Christianity, Islam, and Modernity" referenced to all over and there is certainly much to ruminate on in this recondite read, but I would have preferred a clearer and more attainable caption (I found Talal Asad'due south argument quite convoluted and challenging to follow).

Mar 05, 2020 Yang rated it really liked it

Talal Asad is great. Merely afterward I read his paper introducing his father's works, I started to wonder why he couldn't write in the same straightforward way that he talks virtually his father'due south works...It could have made his works more powerful. Talal Asad is great. But later I read his paper introducing his father's works, I started to wonder why he couldn't write in the same straightforward style that he talks about his father'due south works...Information technology could have fabricated his works more powerful. ...more

Jan 24, 2021 _duncan rated information technology liked it

I consider myself a secular fella' despite my mind beingness ridden with myth and symbols... That being said i've been thinking virtually antiessentialist culture more than usual lately and in this volume I found its anthropology weak. I consider myself a secular fella' despite my mind being ridden with myth and symbols... That being said i've been thinking about antiessentialist culture more usual lately and in this book I found its anthropology weak. ...more

Aug 08, 2019 Maxim rated information technology liked it

Especially the 3rd office which affected negatively 'Leseprozess' would be more interesting for readers who specialize on specific/regional topic. Peculiarly the tertiary part which affected negatively 'Leseprozess' would be more interesting for readers who specialize on specific/regional topic. ...more

Apr eighteen, 2012 Sarah rated it information technology was ok

Although Asad has moments of brilliance, I found that the points he made were asunder from 1 another and his language difficult to understand even from an academic and anthropological perspective. He could accept benefited from an overall decision and more tie in to his theme. Like other reviewers, I felt like he was 'winging information technology' Although Asad has moments of brilliance, I found that the points he made were disconnected from one another and his language difficult to understand even from an academic and anthropological perspective. He could have benefited from an overall conclusion and more tie in to his theme. Like other reviewers, I felt like he was 'winging information technology' ...more

This is a dense volume and especially the give-and-take at the end of the volume on secularism and its entry into the earth of Islam using the instance of Arab republic of egypt I didn't take enough background to sympathise well. I really enjoyed Talal Asad's discussion of Agency and Hurting, Cruelty and Torture and Human Rights as a way to look at the American Civil Rights movement. This is a dense book and especially the give-and-take at the end of the volume on secularism and its entry into the world of Islam using the case of Egypt I didn't accept enough background to empathise well. I really enjoyed Talal Asad'south word of Agency and Pain, Cruelty and Torture and Human Rights every bit a mode to look at the American Ceremonious Rights move. ...more

Jun 27, 2007 Ben rated it information technology was astonishing

On the striving for modernity, and how it varies from place to place and person to person. Particularly, how religious systems produce incompatibilities between belief systems and thus political systems, making liberalism difficult.

Mar 12, 2008 Shawn rated it information technology was amazing

Asad traces the creation of the construct of secularism in the West. In doing so, he shows that western assumptions about secularism as the preferred footing of modern societies is flawed. Very thought provoking volume.

Dec 01, 2015 Waseem Naser rated information technology really liked it

Asad has an amazing range of sensibilities for an academic, while also having an engaging fashion of writing. The outset part was brilliant, but next two were too brief in its historical analysis. Simply on the whole, a highly engaging book.

An of import book with important ideas that deserves a proper review...which, unfortunately, I take no fourth dimension to give it. Worth reading!

Dec 07, 2013 Fokhrul marked information technology as to-read

I think it is an essential book for understanding secularism

December 25, 2013 Haris rated it information technology was astonishing

Our way out of modernity? Develop a governance and club which acknowledges identity and belief as linked to *means of being* and pain as consisting of agency. Excelente!

Nov 22, 2014 Jessica Zu rated information technology really liked it

Only read the assigned capacity. I could use his argument to farther my calendar to of provincializing Europe.

Interesting volume detailing the geneaology of secularism. I now sympathise much more virtually the role of the secular authorities in a various society.

May 20, 2019 Basil rated it it was amazing

Dense and often convoluted, but many, many moments of brilliance worth returning to time and time again.

Dec 07, 2011 Shelly rated it really liked information technology

Dandy book, and critical for anyone in religious studies.

Talal Asad (born 1932) is an anthropologist at the City University of New York.

Asad has made of import theoretical contributions to Postal service-Colonialism, Christianity, Islam, and Ritual studies and has recently chosen for, and initiated, an anthropology of Secularism. Using a genealogical method developed by Friedrich Nietzsche and made prominent past Michel Foucault, Asad "complicates terms of comparis

Talal Asad (built-in 1932) is an anthropologist at the City University of New York.

Asad has fabricated important theoretical contributions to Postal service-Colonialism, Christianity, Islam, and Ritual studies and has recently called for, and initiated, an anthropology of Secularism. Using a genealogical method developed past Friedrich Nietzsche and made prominent past Michel Foucault, Asad "complicates terms of comparison that many anthropologists, theologians, philosophers, and political scientists receive as the unexamined groundwork of thinking, judgment, and action as such. By doing so, he creates clearings, opening new possibilities for advice, connection, and creative invention where opposition or studied indifference prevailed."

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"The structure of civilizational difference is non exclusive in whatever simple sense. The de-essentialization of Islam is paradigmatic for all thinking most the assimilation of non-European peoples to European civilization. The thought that people's historical feel is inessential to them, that it can be shed at will, makes it possible to contend more strongly for the Enlightenment's claim to universality: Muslims, every bit members of the abstruse category "humans," can be assimilated or (equally some recent theorist have put information technology) "translated" into a global ("European") civilization once they take divested themselves of what many of them regard (mistakenly) as essential to themselves. The belief that human beings tin be separated from their histories and traditions makes it possible to urge a Europeanization of the Islamic globe. And past the same logic, it underlies the belief that the assimilation to Europe's civilisation of Muslim immigrants who are--for good or for ill--already in European states is necessary and desirable.
" — 6 likes

"The construction of civilizational difference is not exclusive in any simple sense. The de-essentialization of Islam is paradigmatic for all thinking virtually the assimilation of non-European poeples to European civilization. The thought that people's historical experience is inessential to them, that it can be shed at volition, makes it possible to debate more strongly for the Enlightenment'southward claim to universality: Muslims, as members of the abstract category "humans," can be alloyed or (as some contempo theorist have put it) "translated" into a global ("European") civilization in one case they have divested themselves of what many of them regard (mistakenly) as essential to themselves. The conventionalities that human beings tin exist separated from their histories and traditions makes it possible to urge a Europeanization of the Islamic world. And by the same logic, it underlies the conventionalities that the assimilation to Europe's civilization of Muslim immigrants who are--for good or for ill--already in European states is necessary and desirable." — 5 likes

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